Big Interview: "You can't be democratic when you silence people," says Pheona Wall

In the face of rising cases of torture of suspects under detention by security, some people have said the Uganda Law Society (ULS), a body that brings together lawyers in the country, has not done enough to condemn or even fight the vice.

Speaking to The Nile Post in an interview, the president of ULS, Pheona Nabasa Wall disputed this, saying as ULS, they have done a number of things for the good of the common people and they will continue to do so since its mandate.

Excerpts below:

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First thing first, who is Pheona Wall?

I am Pheona, what can I say. I am an ordinary woman. I am a mother of three children. I am married, I am a Christian. I am a child of two parents who love me. It was my parents who decided that I should do law, although at that time I thought I wanted to do medicine and I fought them but everybody at home used to call me lawyer because I was always defending people, arguing in the middle of every argument.

I loved literature, I loved history and I did them well but I was very passionate about medicine. So when I got into law, I went to Makerere University and I did it.

What inspired you?

Three things inspired me in my journey. When I went to law school I started volunteering at the legal aid clinic at LDC and the impact I was having on people’s lives made me very satisfied. The second, the reason I had wanted to be a doctor when I was about 10 years old, my brother died due to medical negligence, so I was always angry. I always wanted to be a good doctor but I realised as a lawyer I have the ability to put some laws in place so that this never happens again.

Most people claim that Uganda Law Society has not done enough in the fight for human rights in the country apart from the usual condemnation.

First of all, when Kakwenza [Rukirabashaija] was in court, we went and we represented him. We have also been engaging {different stakeholders} because we don’t just make statements, we engage, we talk. Uganda Law Society is the only one that made a statement on torture. We have written reports.

At the beginning of this quarter we wrote a big report on these torture issues and sent to the new Minister of Justice as a brief on what needs to be done. We have been calling upon the people and even the media to expose these officers who are torturing the [suspects under detention] and we take them to court.

What are some of those things that limit your ability as Uganda Law Society?

The willingness of people to come forward with information that will help us because in January, when some people came with information on the people who disappeared we found them and we defended them. So, we need the local people to trust us, to bring us information and we work on it but I can not build a case on thin air. When we received information about Bugoma Forest we went to court, when we were given information about Health we went to court. The public interest litigation we do also needs to follow a certain {direction} otherwise we keep losing cases. We will be wasting members' resources because when we sue as Uganda Law Society, we are using money.

Are you not worried about the shrinking civic space in the country?

I am worried, first of all I saw a lot of civil society organisations closed down and some of them were found to be compliant, we are following this case very closely. Civil society is everywhere all over the world. It is a driver of social economic change, it is a driver of social consciousness of the people. We cannot call ourselves a democracy and silence people. It is a very worrying trend. Another worrying trend is the internet being closed for a long time. Business human rights have also suffered as a result clamping down certain rights, the rights to express yourself.

The common people have always complained that some lawyers are very expensive. As Uganda Law Society, what are you doing to make services affordable?

This is not true, legal services in Uganda are the cheapest in the world. There is a remuneration rule that says for this you charge me this, so if you decide to go to an expensive lawyer that is on you. We have about 10500 law firms in Uganda. My problem is that they are in Kampala and we are trying to encourage them to go upcountry, then services will be cheaper.

When someone comes from Masaka to Kampala to ask for a law firm in Kampala to represent them, the law firm will ask for transport and things like that.

Why do you think Ugandans do not want to use lawyers in their day to day activities?

It is ignorance, it is a very big concern for me that government ministries and departments don’t have legal departments because every day they are signing contracts, they are doing procurements, they have issues of governance, you have seen what is happening in Parliament, this is because these people don’t have legal advice.

People think that lawyers come when you are in jail. We are trying to teach the population. By the way when you walk into any law firm seeking for legal advice most likely they won’t even charge you, they will give it to you for free. The beautiful thing with the law is that there is nothing new.

Some judges have accused lawyers of abusing them on social media, something which wasn’t in the past. In your view, what has changed?

I think what has gone wrong is that social media is a new animal. It has created a new court, the court of public opinion. You know this generation is also very special, they are characterised by two things. They want things very quickly and their opinions, they air them very quickly without [giving it a fore thought]. At the same time, you cannot ignore social media because we have seen the war in Egypt started on social media.The legal profession all over the world has rules and regulations and professional conduct. You also see some young lawyers take their cases on social media which is not allowed, I think this is something that we all to work on.

What are some of the measures that ULS has put in place to deal with indiscipline cases among the lawyers?

They get suspended from practice, sometimes they get completely disbarred, they get fines, damages and then for criminal offences they are arrested and prosecuted. We have lawyers who have gone to jail. Now if you abuse a judge during a case that is contempt of court. As a lawyer you are an officer of court, you are supposed to behave well. If you are an officer of court, it means the court has power to summon you to answer for your behaviour.

What is your take about the removal of pre-entry exams by Law Development Centre (LDC)

The reason why the decision was taken to remove pre-entry exams was because criticism arose about the content. The exams were like the general paper. Pre-entry exams in my opinion for legal education should have to do with the law, it should not be the general paper .The integrity of the pre entry exams was questioned, it was not the concept that was questioned and this caused a lot of discomfort .

In your view, don’t you think that the removal of the exams will affect the quality of lawyers?

The lawyers are not made at LDC,the lawyers are made in S6 because for the studies of law, there are core subjects. Sometimes back this country had the core subjects. The core subject used to be history ,literature ,economics and sometimes divinity now they removed these core subjects and now at S6 you have a PCB student who failed to get medicine, they apply for law .The first year of law they assume you know history ,which you don’t. They assume you understand literature. For me I think that mistake is being made at S6. Law is too important to be an accident. LDC is about legal procedures, they don’t teach you legal content.

How many lawyers do we have in the country?

We have 4070 lawyers in Uganda that means 1 lawyer to 19,000 Ugandans, so we still need to grow our numbers

Briefly, what are some of your achievements as the president of ULS?

I am proud of Uganda Law Society carrying out an election during the lockdown. It was the first of its kind and I am very glad that I have a very dynamic council to be able to register a lot of achievements despite the lockdown. When we came into office, one of the things we said we wanted was ULS that is faithful to its mandatory membership. We are supposed to fight for the rule of law, advise the government and the public on matters to do with law and government.